European Startup Pulse
European Startup Pulse

Episode 4 · 4 weeks ago

The Network of European Startup Hubs 101

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The Network of European Startup Hubs 101 (Podcast)

You have it all wrong. Europe is not full of competing startup hubs. They are increasingly forming a network for startups. The startups start at one knot in the network (frequently a university), move on to an accelerator, and end up in one of Europe's top 12 fundraising hubs to raise funds, sometimes becoming a unicorn. On their way, the startups leave traces, like R&D capabilities, sales teams, groups, investors, and so on. So they are not really the product of a city, but a continent with free movement. in our blog post you will find the link to a 115-page report that includes much more data.

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About the Pulse of the European Startup Ecosystem

The European startup scene is changing fast. There are new players, old ones fading away, and even more to come in their place- all vying for a piece of this growing pie! In order not to get left behind you need regular updates on what’s going on so that our entrepreneurs can stay one step ahead when building or investing in companies here. That’s why we started the “Pulse of the European Startup Ecosystem” which will provide you with quarterly podcasts chronicling different aspects related to startup activity across European Hubs, supported by the data from the specialized analytics company DEEP Ecosystems.

A Different Understanding of Startup Hubs

In the US most startup hubs have to fulfill most of the functions (incubation, acceleration, expansion, fundraising, …). Especially the Silicon Valley and Bay Area had no other option since they are the cradle of today's startup culture. In Europe on the other hand — with its free movement — a network of hubs developed, where hubs fulfill a function in the growth journey of a startup.

We pick today three functions of hubs in the network and show you how startups are moving along the network, staying in cities and — some of their staff — moving on to the next stage. But there are always departments, teams, or research locations left in the former home cities. This leads to real European startups, that are distributed across the continent in different locations, departments, teams, and functions.

The Twelve Hubs Leading Europe in Fundraising

12 Startup Hubs in Europe already reached critical size (raising more than 1 bn € in funding in one year in 2021. They are London, Berlin, Paris, Stockholm, Tel Aviv, Munich, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Madrid, Copenhagen, Dublin, and Helsinki. Coming from only one, London, in 2013. Most founders take the opportunity of free movement across the European Union, so the EU beats the US as a preferred location for European entrepreneurs.

57% of founders prefer Europe over the US. When asked where founders would prefer to start their company if they had a free choice and all the possibilities, still a majority would go for Europe. In no EU area, the US has beaten Europe in 2021.”

Learn more in our Blog Post and find out more about

There is also a 115 page exclsucive report by DEEP Ecosystems linked exclusively for our audience: https://medium.com/@startuprad_io/the-network-of-european-startup-hubs-101-podcast-3a4ddbc45b74

Union is the subscription management hub for B two B SACE companies where you're looking to expand to new markets, experimenting with pricing models, or simply want to streamline quote to cash process. Union got your back. On top of that, Union Insights provides the SACE metrics you needful reporting to the board and for future company evaluation. It gives you the key figures needed to drive your business forward and take strategic decisions. Union we help SAUCE companies manage their B to be customer subscriptions. To vari It is a German deep tech company. To vari it is a B two B AI SAS solution that helps metal manufacturing companies reduce energy and quality costs by prescribing optimal machine settings. To vari it has global in prize customers in ten countries and saved more than fourteen million for them to Vard's focus on sustainable manufacturing has impacted over fifty five metal processing plants reducing their carbon emissions. Our vision is to drive the world towards sustainable and zero waste manufacturing. Visit w W W T V A R I T dot com to know more about us. Welcome to startup bread dot io, your podcast at YouTube blog covering the German startup scene with news, interviews and live efits. Hello and welcome everybody. This is Joe from Star Too, your start up podcast than YouTube blog from Germany bringing you again another update with Ecosystems and Thomas is here again with me. Hey, how you did? Hi? How are you doing? Job? I'm doing good. I'm still getting over Corona, so really sorry if I'm not on top of my game here right now. This time we thought, instead of boring statistics, we bring you a little bit deeper inside before we meet again end of January to get you the review of twenty two. So when I've been digging through your very very extensive reports, I do believe it had something like a hundred twenty two hundred fifty slides containing lots of data, yes exactly, And um, I realized there's something different, and that's where the headline of to day is coming from. Since you've realized over the years that in Europe you don't have like the single full fledged startup hops like you have in the US, especially Silicon Valley Bay area. UM, but you rather have a network of hubs that startups moved through in their startup journey to achieve different stages of their startup life. So that's why we will be today talking about the network of the European start up hubs here. Yes, yes, that's what I mean. This is something that you see UM in Europe for some time now that even the big hubs don't reach the same size as as in the global competition now. So even if you look outside of the Silicon Valley, large hubs around the world reach much much larger UM investment sums than than the European top hups like like London and Berlin. UM. And that is partially explained by the networked and decentralized structure of the innovations system in Europe. Yeah, I was thinking about that, at least for the still a conveinedly bear area. I could explain...

...that because that's basically the great of today's startup culture. So they had to have everything in one place because there was no other place to go. UM. How much do you think is the free movement within the European Union a part of this development of a start up hub network. Yes, I think that is the prerequisite for that, but also it is a workaround. So if you consider the geographical structure of Europe. It has been growing with changing borders since centuries UM and we have smaller countries, UM, we have smaller markets. So of course entrepreneurs need to UM first of all overcome these borders that still represent the border and the barrier for them to grow. So before we had the European Unification process and the single Market, of course all the structures were nationally built and that's still today. The mindset and the let's say the basis we start from as a German, you start in Germany. As a French, you start in France. But with the increased connectivity between individuals and also the institutions of the European Union, people start to think cross border and UM and yeah. They also realized that there is a limit to growth if they only think in their own national borders. UM. The French will never be UM as big as the US and the Germans neither, so they need to collaborate and this inside that collaboration can put us in a competitive spot with the rest of the world, namely the U S and China. UM. That led to this more connected approach. And I think with these improvements of mobility, the Shanon area, the UM the free movement that we have UM, we are able to build a more connected UM innovation ecosystem, and then with that more connected ecosystem, we're also more able to compete internationally. And would have also found interesting. So today we are only picking out three function of hubs in this network and show you how startups are moving along this network, staying in cities, and would have found very interesting. They're not completely packing up each time and totally moved to another place, but they leave some staff there, some functions, some departments, maybe research locations, so they get spread out all over Europe. It's something I found very interesting there. Yes, in fact, I think we we previously. I think the idea of mobility of founders in Europe was okay, a startup that doesn't find the right conditions in the place they started will just move to Berlin and pack up everything and leave and then it's lost forever. In fact, that's not the reality. What we see is that a lot of founders have a journey that takes them through several locations in Europe UM and they are not basically moving from one place to another indefinitely, but rather they are moving around and they have presence in several places. So statistically, what we observe is that sixty two of startups in Europe have a transnational setup, so sixt and that that's quite early stage already. So they start in the first year to expand to other places. Now, expansion is here defined as any kind of um structured relation you have with another country. So that might be you have employees in a different country. That might be you have an invest in a different country. That might be you have a branch or even your headquarter in a different...

...country. We see that phenomenon as well, that a startup has their staff and and and all the people in one place, but their legal headquarter is in a different location. UM. So all of these kind of international relations, um they are in the six and that shows us that startups are very connected in Europe. They are not just starting in one place, they're starting in several places. What came to mind when you talked about this is the classical check up either in Southern Europe or in Eastern Europe. And some startups that I've worked with personally now have, for example their coding team in Croatia, in Serbia. At one point Ukraine used to be very popular but I do believe that is a trend. We've seen a lot because you do some arbitrash, you hire the people they on location a little bit cheaper than you would, for example in Frankfurt, in Berlin, in London. On the other hand, that this count is getting lower and lower. In my personal experience, yes, this is an effect that you have both with startups as well as with established firms. I mean, if you go to to Poland, UM, I've just been in Gdansk last week. UM. You see large skyscrapers, they're full of UM international companies that have outsourced Gdansk. For example, has I think the Amazon Alexa team there, so they're developing the software behind Alexa and Gdansk in Poland. UM. And that's of course part of this mix of arbitrage, lower costs, but also talent highly educated, you standard education that you that you can find UM and so that's a good mix in my experience. And also what the data shows is that the hiring abroad is not limit it to UM let's say, arbitrage and lower costs. It's definitely not limited to this. You see often that startups go to hire the best talent in another place, and it's rather that the flexibility on the location is a concession to the talent um that wants to stay in their lifestyle, that wants to stay in their um in the area, maybe they have family, etcetera. So it's a concession from the startup to be flexible in place and allow someone that have been UM living and working in let's say Stockholm um to work for a Berlin based startup without moving. So I think that is that is a big part of this as well. And we don't only see cost savings, but we see actively internationally internationalization by the startups to attract the best talent in their niche, in their field that they wouldn't find maybe in the place they started. When I was going through this report, hour was curious, how long are you already gathering data on European startup hubs And when was the first point in time that we realized, Oh, this is not competing hubs, this is a journey, this is a network of hubs there. Yeah. In fact, we started in two thousand sixteen. It was a group of entrepreneurs UM that later founded the company Deep Ecosystems, but before it was really a project that entrepreneurs in Europe from different places, actually, from Italy, Germany, Poland, um, the UK UM came together and said, you know, we know so little about each other. Back then, London was not yet like so clearly the leader. It wasn't completely clear that it will be a big start up hub. In Berlin similar, Um, we knew something's happening, yeah, but still people were thinking, what's happening there? I have no idea. If I'm a Milan, I wouldn't know what's happening in Berlin. There was no visibility, there was no transparency. Um. So yeah, that was our first motivation to to understand...

...better the the experience of a founder in a different location. And that's why we started to collect data. And if you look at it this way, it was always our core idea to increase the connectivity and and start to to exchange among founders and um, yeah, so we are a bit biased as well, if you will, well, because we believe in in in these networks, and so our research was always focused on understanding the connectivity and in fact we see an increase of connectivity over time. Um, there's more and more founder mobility. People were always telling us, well, now with the further integration the all the virtual collaboration opportunities, you will see less founder mobility. Basically you can start your company from everywhere. True, you can, but actually the mobility of founders has increased over time and UM and founders enjoy moving around UM and they they take the opportunity. So mobility and UM and move into a new place becomes more and more common. Mm hmm UM. Do you have any idea how many data points have gone into this analysis of the European start up network? Yeah? So, UM, the database at this point has around UM I would say seventy eight indicators now UM that we track for about hundred twenty cities. So yeah, so you can you can make the math to create the number of data points that we collect. So the indicators range from everything like investment raised UM, the number of early stage startups getting supported by accelerators, the meet ups we have, the number of developers available in a certain start up hub, UM, the international connections, popularity, news mentions, UM. We look at technology trends on social media of what is being discussed. So we really have a wide range of indicators that we can that we can look at to understand what's happening and if you want to put dimensions. Connectivity can be understood as founder mobility, can be understood as the flow of investments, but can also be understood as the the the emergence of a common narrative. Now do we believe in sustainability and impact. That's now a narrative. But in some places this is stronger and others is not strong at all. It's also a measure of connectivity. Now, if the idea, if you say, like the the idea of purpose purpose driven startups, this is very strong now in in hubs like Berlin or maybe also London, right, um, but it maybe it's not so strong in another hub. Um, that is maybe disconnect from this kind of communication, from this kind of dialogue. Um. And so it takes longer until a new trend arrives there because they are less connected. For everybody who's just looking for a quarterly update, we will have one in early twenty twenty three. Um. We do believe you will have the data together some time end of January three and we'll have the recording early February and mid towards the end of February, you'll get a quarterly update. We've now talked about a lot of those hubs, and one of the functions is what you call a fundraising hub. And I found twelve start up hubs in europs in Europe already reached a critical size. They raised more than one building years in funding in one year. They are not surprisingly Berlin, London, Paris, Stockholm, Tel Aviv, but also Munich, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Drid, Copenhagen, in Dublin,...

...and they come a long way from only one, namely London in twenty thirteen. I think that is pretty good development, isn't it. Yes? Absolutely, Helsinki is also part of this um. So it's a part of the democratization of of innovation in Europe. Now you see more hubs reach critical size. Now is one billion or a lot or is it not? You can discuss on a global scale. It's not a lot now, So you're you're not competing yet with New York and Silicon Value. If you raise one billion, you're still far um London, for example, had I think twelve or thirteen billion in two thousand twenty one. But the magical number one billion US dollar per year. It comes of course from the Unicorn startup where we say okay, if they reach a one billion valuation, then we call them a unicorn. But we felt like this is not a this is not like an adequate UM indicator for the development of an ecosystem. If you have or have not a unicorn zero or one, you know, it's not so interesting for analysis of the the ecosystem and the health of the ecosystem. So we said, okay, what could be still representing that ambition of growing a successful hub um and uh and and still reflect that kind of unicorn idea, but be a better indicator for the for the city, for the hub UM. So we said, let's create this UM, this indicator the unicorn ecosystem where all the startups that are active in that hub are counted together and if they raise in one year jointly more than one billion, we give them that, We give them that status of a of a unicorn ecosystem UM. And the interesting thing is that this number was very low in the past. Now so we had one, two, three, then we had four of these hubs for a long time, and only last year it jumped to twelve cities on two twenty one was a particular year we had UM driven through the digitalization that was driven by COVID, we had like large investments UM in startups and that's why we saw a big jump in UM in places, making it above one billion UM. And this shows that they have all the necessary parts to be really a fully fledged ecosystem where where you can grow a startup and raise a significant amounts of funding. That sounds pretty good, especially the growth. I do believe twenty twenty two will not be such a great year and then maybe a few let's start up hups reaching this one building, but I do believe they will be coming back. As we said, we have a few functions now picked out here UM three stages in your report especially interesting. They start in a university, they accelerate to test their ideas in the accelerator hub, and they eventually raise funds in a top hup UM. As we said, the basic idea is you don't need to keep the founders, you don't need to offer everything to be a start up hub, but you have to offer the best solution for a certain stage of a certain industry that the startups are active in. UM. This also let me to conclude that your is not a continent of rivalry start up hubs, but rather a network of startup not fulfilling different functions in life cycle of a startup. UM, if you want to be on this map, you have to look for function you could fulfill...

...in a certain type for a certain type of startups. So to say, uh, look where you can be useful, UM, where do the startups enter the hubs or do not profit from this? Yes, you describe this very well. Um, we see like these journeys. Now the startups are coming out of very good universities that maybe not located in business hubs. Now we we have the example of UM. For example, here Lausan. Startups might come out of Lusan, which is a fantastic city and it's it's in Switzerland, which is which is economically strong of course, but Lausan is not like the same as Munich or or London right in terms of business connections and market access, etcetera. So you have like a very interesting universities that produce very bright entrepreneurs and also give them all the entrepreneurial mindset. Still they need to move on to test their idea and other hubs might have specialized in supporting startups in the first steps of market testing UM, finding a product market fit. UM. These might be hubs where we're very very good accelerators have emerged. But we mentioned here Valencia, which is like again not a place that you know on the global landscape in terms of business. Now, that's not where where the biggest tech companies are located were born. So but still they have like very strong acceleration as an accelerator Lanzadera UM that is placed there, it's accelerating many many international startups UM, so it's supporting a lot of entrepreneurs from everywhere that come there UM and helps them to find their product market fit. Once they have that product market fit, most likely they don't stay in Valencia because that's their product market fit is probably in a different market. Well it's probably maybe it's not in Spain, maybe it's not in UM in Valencia, So they might move to another hub to to actually sell their product and also to raise investment because while Valencia might have like good business angels UM and it might get like a first investment, if you then want to go into later stage series A, b C, d UM, then you need to go to a place where these kind of investors are UM existing, So you need to go to maybe Berlin, Paris or London, so you see that journey and startups go through these kind of UM steps and they give back, of course to all of the places they have touched. Imagine this startup that went through let's say, from Los Ange to Valencia to London UM. Once they receive their hundred million investment UM, they will of course have still connections in these places and when they need to quickly invest in the growth of their company, they will make use of the networks and capabilities that they have met and found in all of these places. They will come back to the university to the professor and ask what talent can I hire? Because you know them, you you taught them, which talent can I hire? Can I maybe open a lab that I need next to to your lab? Can I maybe buy a place from the university. We've seen that from BioNTech, one of the largest successes in European startups. BioNTech bought a laboratory after they grew UM. They bought the laboratory from the from the City of Minds. So this is like, this is happening. Uh. They are they are thinking, Okay, where can I expand my capabilities and use the money I raised UM to invest and they will do this in the places they have been to, and likely the startup that we just followed that the imaginary startup will also can...

Valencia. I will say, okay, so you help me. I mean you introduced me to the first lawyer. Maybe I will hire that lawyer. Maybe I will hire salespeople in Valencia from other startups that were part of this accelerator and have a similar mindset, a similar understanding, and we can hit the ground running UM if I if I hire them from from maybe they're failing startups or from UM from the network there. So definitely it is is worth for UM. For a city, UM economically it is worth to be part of the journey in some way or the other. And since it's a very competitive space founders moving away quickly and easily, UM, you need to as a city strategically, you need to always think about how can I be part? How can it be a constructive part in the journey. The first idea that you can have is to say I don't allow you to move. UM, I only work with startups that will be from the date they are born until the date they are die. They die in one location. If you only want to work with those and you are not in the top half. Most likely you will not work with very successful founders man and if you only want to work with the startups that that are born, live and die in one place, you'll likely have a lot of startups that are dying. What I found interesting is the universities as a breeding ground. You have made up four quadrants here that I can see first global cities where entrepreneurs identify as alumni of local universities. Not surprisingly, London is on top there in the global cities Paris, Barcelona, Madrid and Munich. But the largest cities already holds some surprises, like at Stockholm, Edinburgh, Dublin mentors they're in Copenhagen. I also found the mid sest cities pretty interesting Villainires, Bratislava, Nicosia and Cyprus, trent To and Varna, and the small cities Nottingham, Saint Gallen in Switzerland, Lund Delft and Sheffield many interesting places. You haven't heard from international press as a stonopub break, yes, and that's simply because the startups at this stage are not that prominent, right. So if you have like a founder starting out in Sheffield, the international press wouldn't care right, Um, that's why you need a support system and and this um, this founder probably at the university in Sheffield, has like a support system that that helps them with the first steps. But then they likely move on and once they are big enough so that they are in the press. No, they are not in Sheffield anymore. Um. And that's why you wouldn't connect Sheffield with the with this success. You will find this only if you read their city. That's what I've also seen here. UM, you found fifties percent of accelerated startups relocate within Europe. Less than half find an accelerator accelerator in the hometown. And the relocation is an accelerating trend, no pun intended. Going from forty nine percent to sixty two percent of your respondents, I found this really interesting. And most of this acceleration is actually done um by moving across borders within Europe. Moving to other cities is the is the main um. The highest number of course, so which can be also the same country. Now if you if you move from any other smaller city in Germany to to Munich or Berlinia, still moving. Um. So this is definitely a very strong trend. We see that more than half are doing this, so the...

...participants in the accelerators are not from the same town, which also makes sense. Accelerators are competing if they and they need to also show their sponsors and investors something. If they would only source startups in their own hub, it wouldn't be that interesting, right, So they're an attraction point and they and the startups also take these opportunities. Now UM and yeah, and they source from the universities that you just just mentioned. The it's not UM. It's a clever idea for an accelerator to connect to two universities, especially if they are not UM in the top hubs where they are basically an abundant UM accelerator programs. But for example, as you mentioned Lund or Sheffield, maybe there is not a top accelerator or an accelerator program that fits specifically with the need of of of the the spinoff that we just saw, so they moved to another place. I found here. It's very interesting you found out that accelerators, especially in small cities, have relatively more international guests, and that kind of struck me. When you are now a mayor senator in charge of a certain area in certain of a certain city. UM does it mean that smaller cities who are even too small for university can greatly profit from a good accelerator program. Mm hmm. Yes, I think that there is a unique positioning to create acceleration UM doing it really by the book, doing it on a on a very successful UM method. UM. I think that you have a chance because many of the accelerators that we see are not very good in Europe now, so we have a very low quality of accelerators UM. Many of them are sponsored, government run with no UM, with no business model, with no skin in the game. So performance of these accelerators has been notoriously low. UM. Investments given by accelerators is very low compared to two international standards. Basically in Europe mostly you get like an investment of twenty tho UM for participating an accelerator and you have to give away ten percent UM. That's kind of like the general deal that you have. That's terrible. That's a terrible deal in international standards UM. But most accelerators operate on this UM, and yeah, that that's a Even though there's many UM, there's a fantastic opportunity to position in this and to create better conditions to create better programs UM and where this happens is not so important as we see, because these accelerators are often working on product market fit and you basically, UM, you need UM like the right coaches, you need to wrap the right network. Yes, but it doesn't have to be in in the top help now it can be also in Valencia, so there you can very very nicely work on your product market fit. That's not a restrictional So in the end, positioning in this is a clever strategy. And I found also another analysis from you guys the international participation by accelerators and absolute numbers. Not surprisingly number one is London, Paris, Berlin, Munich, but then I found interesting loser as one, two three, Number six is Amsterdam, Oslow, Barcelona, Copenhagen, Swish. We haven't had on the list Stockholm, Riga again, Valencia, Vienna and Lisbon. So they're they're drawing in a lot of international entrepreneurs, a lot of international talent just by providing UM good acceleration ecosystems. You have to call it right, yes, yes, and I think UM smaller places...

...of course need to attract more internationally because their home grown entrepreneurs are just not enough, right, so to run the accelerator you need a certain volume of deal flow, and so you need to actively go out and run campaigns and look for participants outside. So that definitely is a is a challenge. I mean another example is the is Berlin. In Berlin, you have, um you have a Gundash Deependum, which is a stipend plus accelerator program that's sponsored by the city government. And funny enough is they have created like I think ten fifteen smaller programs that accelerate the startups that get that stipend. And these ten fifteen programs they all start on the same day. So to run this program in Berlin you need for each program at least five to ten participants, right, and then you have of ten fifteen programs starting on the same day, that means Berlin needs to find fifty eight participants on the same day. And so you see, like what kind of requirement in deal flow you have to run and accelerate a program on a certain on a certain level. Um. So yeah, it's a it's a challenge. And in Berlin maybe you can generate enough homegrown entrepreneurs, but for sure, as a small city, you need to source internationally and talking about internationally, I also found a very interesting graphic here about the key markets of the respondents of your survey. Far far ahead by more than are the s, but interestingly, almost fiftent said there their target most important target market is Germany, followed by Southern Europe, you K, Central and Eastern Europe, Nordics, Asia. There we are already below five percent, France, the Middle East, South America also known as Latin and Africa, which I found pretty interesting that you can all reach by going there in a local acceleration program. I think there's a big unit opportunity there. And um talking about the last step, because we're already recording for almost thirty five minutes the fundraising Hubboy International Hub that that are twelve ones that make headlines where in the last um in the last time, I forgot health and key, I'm so sorry, guys. And um there I found something interesting as well, because it's not that there are we've trained to this hub, but you have a very nice graphic of the unicorns where they headquartered, and they're where they're actually expanding on a map, so that means they're like a handful of places where the unicorns are headquartered but there are many, many more dots spread all across Europe where they have branches, where they have um local places where they for example, have a sales team in Germany, where they have a development team in Bucharest, where they have something else. It's very interesting. Can you talk a little bit more about this because I do believe the final destinations, the hops that the twelve in Europe are already pretty well known. Unless you think it is not the case, then we can make the next episode about the twelve houps here. Now for sure, we have like a concentration of unicorns in in a few places. Now, that's that's where they moved to. That's where they have become successful. And their headquarters are there. But headquarters, they are headquarters. They are there for a legal reason. They're therefore uring functions that are that can only be...

...based there because of the networks of the capital networks mainly UM, but then the functions of creating the products, of organizing the sales, um etcetera. They're spread out in across different countries and if you look at Europe you see very interesting places that have accumulated a high number of of Unicorn offices. For example, Milan is one of the places that pops up now, which is like an entry point to the Italian and Southern European markets. Um So, definitely that's a place where you see a lot of unicorns move to. Um. You see the same in the Iberian Peninsula and Madrid mainly, but also in port To, which I find very interesting. Porto has as a strong I T and H I T knowledge base um in in the universities around there, so you see quite a few offices in that area. Um So you see accumulations um also Dublin, Ireland accumulations of unicorn offices rather than unicorn headquarters. And that means you're not lost if you don't have your own unicorn. Now you can have also uh slice of the pie by hosting expanding unicorns, and that, by the way, it can also create spillover effects for your start up ecosystem. Then of course, if you have a unicorn opening a branch in port To, these people that work there and the entrepreneurs that come to expand there, they will leave a mark. They will leave like um some new ideas. They will connect to local people and help them on their entrepreneurial journey. At best, UM, so you will have benefits from the expansion of unicorns. And yeah, basically looking at all of this, the geography of innovation is much more complex and uh and detailed as as let's say there's one hub that rules of the rest. Now there's there's like really like an intricate network of relations and different functions that different places take. And you're finding your way as a founder to create your own network of capabilities. Um is a big challenge. And then as a as a city that wants to attract these founders. UM, that's uh, that's also a tough task, but something you should embark on because it can be really worthwhile. Or everybody who would like to learn more, we'll have down here in the show, not part of the research report that we just quoted. UM, if you're founder, if your investor, if you're thinking about setting up an accelerator, that would be very interesting data. As we said with celebrating or this is all free of charge and exclusively only available from us by Deep Ecosystem Thomas. We will be leaving now. Thank you very much. Was a pleasure talking to you because the aim was to keep this recording on the forty minutes and we'll barely make this. The next episode will be actually next year. In so Thomas, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year. Yes, even though it's just November, Merry Christmas already and the Happy New Year. I'm looking forward to next year. Sounds a little bit strange saying this when we're recording this end of October, but nonetheless we will be back. Thanks guys, have a great day. By bye bye. That's all. Fuls. Find more news streams, events at interviews at www. Let's start of reading that iile remember sharing is carry.

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